Only two factors are within your control: the location of the wound and the amount of tissue destroyed. Having fired 45 ACP and 9mm at human targets the 9 took 3 sometimes 4 hits c.o.m. Whatever happened to the body armor piercing 5.7 round- 20 in the mag, one in the pipe n if that aint enough, 30 round mag works great for me!!!! I dont plan on using a handgun for long distance shooting. Thats just because most folks never have to shoot someone firing at them. Likewise, there was a big Army study on gunshot wounds and ammunition effectiveness in 1946-47, in which they mentioned that something they saw again and again in Europe was that 9mm bullets were far more likely to shatter bone in a way that contributed significantly to the damage done than any other pistol caliber, including .45. I have found that I prefer the 9mm as an EDC concealed carry. But its definitely not easy to carry concealed (especially in hot weather) and Im big guy. Owned a model 29 .357 My personal opinion is that the military has found that many recruits are unable to accurately fire the .45 and cannot manage the recoil. Also another fact is that my Kimber Colt 45 actually has less recoil than my 9mm with an aluminum frame when my 9mm has a full steel from. From my time in the USMC, I saw a certain population fall in love with the 9mm bc of its easier to handle recoil. The best stopping power is a complex mix of many different factors, including how fast the round is traveling and what it does when it enters the attackers body. at 2,690 feet per second, and slows to 840 feet per second at 500 yards. This is what can incapacitate a target, even with a poorly placed torso shot. George. And if Im responsible enough to use a firearm to fight for my government, Im responsible enough to own a firearm to protect myself and loved ones. With that in mind The most lead I can force through the air, the better. For me the argument is how the pistol or revolver feels in my hand and how accurately can shoot it. I have small hands for a guy but I have no problems with accuracy. Just bless his little Prsident heart. It is extremely difficult to shoot accurately under such pressure. The larger a projectiles surface area, the greater its ability to transfer its energy to the target, instead of simply penetrating straight through. /9mm has a lot more options when it comes to ammo but I prefer my Springfield XD .45 or my Kimber Custom II 1911. As I have read your comments and, also read many debates including what science says. Though the patient survived and only had a small wound, he suffered extensive contusions throughout his lungs. This pits apples to apples and will once and for all lay to rest all this ludicrous debate. She said she shot him. The comments concerning shot placement are correct. Why is .45 acp so much better than 9mm? In Walmart I carry a p99 Walter. The original design and purpose of the 1911 45, was perfect for its knock down power. I hadnt even gotten halfway through the article before coming to the same conclusion. If you shoot someone through the skull with a .22 rimfire and penetrate their brain, you will almost certainly immediately incapacitate them. 3 more replies -8w7- 13 hr. Now they have announced they are moving back to the 9mm in the form of the new Gen5 Glock 17M. The kidneys separate this material from the blood. Fun to shoot a couple of hundred rounds at the range, without soreness. Will that hollow point still have the same effect? Theres been many people shot and continue. Just some REAL world observation not keyboard commando stuff. In September 2014, LooserRounds posted an article titled FBI Training Division Justifies 9mm Caliber Selection. 158 gr 0.38" Special P and 0.357" Magnum semi-jacketed bullets will penetrate both sides of a human skull. One hit with any caliber has more stopping power than 100 misses with any caliber, type bullet or inherent accuracy. There are other similar handgun calibers, such as the .44 Special and the .45 Colt, and of course, the .357 SIG and 10mm Auto are When the .223 exits the barrel of a gun, it flies at more than 3,200 feet per second, and is still going 1,660 feet per second after traveling 500 yards. cause if they did there would not be so many innocent victims being injured and killed all because they couldnt hit the side of a barn with a soft ball from 5 ft. If you wound one man, you take three men out of battle, one injured & two to care for him. As a non operator and someone who cant get to the range much an article I read made sense to me as simple as it may seem. The average criminal etc. I also do not understand why the M&P was disqualified, but it could be that other manufacturers guns have already been eliminated as well. People have walked off from head shot wounds from the venerable .45, .38 mag, etc. A majority of FBI shooters are both faster and more accurate using 9mm Luger versus .40 S&W rounds. Use your heads!! Slow him down, double up, spin/alter his track-anything to allow you to get that second shot and the empty the clip. All rights reserved. Anyway great comments to all. A 35-45 psi Not aim shoot. I have a rock island arms 1911 45, a Walther p22 22cal., A heritage rough rider 22 6 inch barrel. In a statement, the FBI said he used a modified an SKS , the predecessor to the AK-47 which shoots the same bullets. Trauma surgeons, the guys actually opening up peoples chests and trying to put them back together, say otherwise. You can either hit a target or not that simple. Anyone who has seen Clint Eastwoods Dirty Harry movies is familiar with Sergeant Callahans favorite sidekick, his .44 magnum revolver. He taught criminal law/procedure at the FBI Academy. A more accurate equation is (terminal) Energy, defined as 1/2 the mass times the velocity squared. I know the argument for +P with lighter bullets, but I settled on these because they meet my two most important criteria for defensive ammo penetration and accuracy. I checked him out, and he's legit as far as that title is concerned and where he works. Both are great calibers. The story makes that even sound too few. The .45 knocked him on his ***. When fragmentation occurs, the permanent cavity expands rapidly and dramatically. Mamma and papa went getting along I guess. I just bought a S&W M&P 9 Shield. I carry a s&w .357 airweight not fun to shoot due to recoil and sound. The old adage If its good enough for the military, its good enough for me. is just nonsense today. What do you think of the Shield or do you know anything about it? The 45s power and bullet size vs. the 9 mm Luger round was Hollow points are designed to rapidly expand after hitting a target, causing as much damage as possible and reducing the chance of overpenetration. You may be knocked down and have to squeeze off a once and last shot to save you life. I like how the author notes that the accuracy analogy is nonsense, thats true. Head and neck shot were down on contact if the hit bone, flesh hit required another shot. Penetration of this length and the tissue, blood vessel and organ damage/destruction that follows is vital to circulatory collapse. The louder the pop the more credence is added to his choice to continue in his efforts his engagement with you. I like them all! The same companies make the 45acp and other calibers! Theres not the penetration of a 9, because the mass of energy is transferred suddenly to the body in impact. Im sorry, but the .50 Barrett sucks there is no match grade ammo available for it. Probably not, but here is my take on the ol' 9mm vs 45 ACP debate. Now marine I hope your watching now instead of using glock 19 in a 9mm counterpart here is a better suggestion why dont you use a glock 21 4th gene to insure ur fellow colleges a better a faster on the spot accuracy with zero recoil it will enable them to be more successful in hitting targets. These are the only two factors you can expect to remain constant in any situation. FN DUH! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2rwYqGmVvzQ, http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1165386, http://www.m4carbine.net/forumdisplay.php?s=&daysprune=&f=91, http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=34714, http://www.dtic.mil/ndia/2008Intl/Roberts.pdf. They are a secondary source at best. 24 Round Magazine now only decreases reload time by 5% rather than 20% like before. 0.177" Steel air gun dart will penetrate to shank, in skin, at 120 ft/s. The smaller size of the 9mm also allows for more rounds per magazine, as well as lighter weapons. Take a look at the FBI stats on their testing of various pistol ammunition as well as other reputable studies. A .22 will kill you, but it wont blow your head apart, he said. In that encounter, Sgt Gramins shot the suspect 14 times, any one of 6 of those would have almost certainly been fatal wounds. 9mm, I carry 147 grain Hp. Were investigating how it spends its money. This may be called Tools or use an icon like the cog. What, is that like an every day occurrence? At 70, I choose to go small & straight! But with my Kimber Colt 45 I hit first shot no problem and it left that watermellon in disaster. Anyway, stay tuned we shall wait and see. This doesnt factor shot placement. .. maybe for some people the 45 is too much power,. Thats why were here right? Handgun velocities top out at around 1,500 fps at the muzzle. He is the current USPSA Carry Optics Colorado State Champion and most recently won 3rd place in Master Class at the 2022 USPSA Carry Optics National Championship. Do Not Sell My Personal Information, If you need further help setting your homepage, check your browsers Help menu, Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness,, Lethal Force and the Objectively Reasonable Officer,, FBI Training Division Justifies 9mm Caliber Selection, supervisory and municipal liability in law enforcement. The will to live and fight varies from person-to-person. With bigger bullets, you will make bigger holes., What makes the .223 potentially deadlier than the .22 is its velocity. One week later the detective in charge advised me that papa lived, walked out of the hospital and back to Mexico. How does air resistance have ANYTHING to do with the terminal ballistics as they relate to penetration? I know this is off topic. Bob. What will each round acco. There are tons of manuals and a ton of information so that you can write an informed post. Oh and dont give me the garbage about 9mm has come a long way since its inception. Lets say it is winter and a large person is wearing very heavy clothing. Going back and reading over your original post, by the by, I can only say this: Also, there are documented cases from New York and other law enforcement agencies of officers shooting criminals and having their bullets pass entirely through the criminal and striking a civilian bystander, thus wounding someone not engaged by the police officer. Indeed, in some studies, such as one conducted by the Law Enforcement Assistance Administration (LEAA), the temporary cavity is assumed to be the primary handgun wounding factor. Shot with 300 win mag at 500 yards. 10..again 10 rounds landed on target. Ultimately, your selection of a caliber should be based first on the penetration, and second on the unexpanded size of the round. Rhee explained that the more massive the projectile, the more severe the wound. Thank you. Why dont these experts just admit that they prefer Glocks and let it go at that? Heres what they found it did to those enemies bodies, as republished in, Bullets can also increase the surface area that transfers energy to targets by expanding, as in the case of hollow-point rounds. The only thing caliber has to do with it is 9mm is size efficient for capacity. Ricochet off. to stop the threat. I am former law enforcement from Florida, depending on the situation I actually carry both my Ruger American 9 mm and the Ruger American 45 caliber ACP oh, not at the same time lol. Shot placement is often cited as a consideration when choosing the right handgun for self defense and for good reason its definitely important. The issue is the 9mm one penetrated which resulted in through and through shots. Let me now take you back to 1987. Been involved in violent life or death confrontations for well over 40 years. interacts online and researches product purchases I dont know if the recoil might throw me off. AT 500 fps a 230 grains projectile would only have 127 foot pounds of energy leaving the muzzle. Kimber 1911 Rapide Dawn .45 ACP Pistol $ 1649 99 1649 dollars 99 cents. I use +P ammo. The best gun is the one that is best in your hands not best someone elses hands. Most people shot with long gun rounds they tend to be doa . However, it does suffer from the same issue as the .40s&w, and that is that its snappier in its recoil impulse. If another prefers a 9mm let him use it. ), provide a detailed description of the incident and review the critical importance of choosing the appropriate duty-carry handgun rounds for police officers. As blood moves through the body, it picks up extra fluid, chemicals and waste. This is exactly what I said above. I have a medical issue that makes it easier for me to carry a double action in a very small package. S&W was required to announce it due to SEC requirements as they are one of the only publicly-owner companies. G27 with the 10 for EDC and G22 with 22 count mag for inside the house, 40 doesnt seem to have that much more pop than 9mm to me, and i have relatively small hands. Because recoil obviously cant be observed and you have to shoot someone huh, I heard of a police officer shooting a dog 6 times with a 9 mm before being able to incapacitate the dog. I can not remember a single specific instance of someone shot with JHP, where I knew for a fact at the time what I was looking at. I agree with your bad guy statement, but when I was training to become a Paramedic and obviously most of the training was done in the ER so we definitely saw damner everything you can imagine especially a lot of gunshot incidents and what I can tell you was that we were able to save and keep more bad guys alive who were shot with 9mm multiple times than those who had been shot 1-2 times with a .45. Ive shot both calibers at humans as a soldier and as a LEO and 9mm just doesnt get the same results as 45 in the same number of shots. That said today I only carry my 5th gen Glock 19. If youve ever spent anytime shooting steel then you would know which one will take someone off their feet quicker. round, you can see all three effects. My neighbor saw that the guy was afraid of the thing and couldnt get back on target after the 1st shot due to the recoil and his flinching with every shot. Gimme a break! In the woods my .45 r1 with cast is what I carry. Damage: 55. Now I am a fan of 45s. My Kimber .45 is one of my favorite pistols EVER, but its heavy and only has 8 rounds. Depends. If you throw it at someone, not so much. If its fired from a Thompson Submachine gun, its almost guaranteed to be lethal. ), and I can buy twice the ammo and get twice the practice. .45 Magazine type M1911 mag.45 ACP: Damage 1389 Blood: Fire modes Semi Shots to kill body: 3 head: 1 Effective range 50/100 m Rate of fire moderate Recoil Moderat Noise Moderate There are a number of reasons for a failure to incapacitate, including a lack of awareness of the wound, intense personal fortitude, extreme emotions or physiological effects both natural (adrenaline) or chemically-induced (drugs such as PCP, heroin and cocaine). Using the right bullet is where it counts. Let us know your thoughts in the comments below! I have yet to see any really legit fair and unbiased comparison of the 9mm and 45acp calibers. It seems to me to be better than the 9mm or the 45 acp I carry a 9 as one of my CCW, a Sig P938. I have my personal preferences and it is the .45 ACP, next is the 40 S&W, down the line a couple of notches is the 9mm. The pool of cartridges in the study are grouped which makes the data integrity less reliable but each group of larger calibers exhibit significant percentage better lethality. For those not in the military, go for what you want. Officially last year it was announced that DoD intends to move to hollowpoint ammunition with this new MHS gun (whichever one ends up winning the contract). JavaScript seems to be disabled in your browser. I like both, so it is a matter of how balanced and comfortable is it when in use ? Though the patient survived and only had a small wound, he suffered extensive contusions throughout his lungs. A .45 ACP will encounter greater resistance than a 9mm, but it also carries more weight, albeit at a slower velocity. This was not a good CC carry eather so for a while I did not carry CC. Because of the dynamic and chaotic nature of officer-involved shootings, officers are trained to shoot at center mass of an assailants torso from whatever side/angle of the torso that presents itself. In the above GIF of ballistics gel taking a .50-cal. The worse thing in a gunfight is running out of ammo, lol If you shoot well it shouldnt make a difference, especially with todays ammo types. Have fun be safe and shoot often for sport and recreation and maybe someday to save your life and loved ones! You hit it dead on its not the cal thats most important its what you can do with it. Nobody I know whos been in the service liked the M9. But I agree, I would LOVE to see more true American companies represented!! hand guns to suit little feminine hands who shoots the Bad Guys with far less recoil and stopping power. I find the heavy slide helps with the .40 recoil and keeps the barrel from jumping. Its hesitation that makes people miss. However, the round stopped just short of entering Platts heart/aorta, only penetrating his torso about six or seven inches. I much prefer the 45 acp and have used it on game from deer to moose and it always was my go to gun. Well judging by the fact that .45 has been killing people since at least the 1870sI'd say it can really screw up your day. I can say with great certainty that many animals dont just simply fall over and die. With proper shot placement, I can make my .22 a rock star. You can read all the FBI reports and all the ballistic gel crap you want. I have used both calibers personally in combat, and I can say unequivocally and without any doubt whatsoever that the .45 cal DEFINITELY has much more knockdown power than the 9mm which due to its higher velocity tends to punch right through the assailant leaving him wounded but still on his feet and able to return fire. Died instantly. and that the data you submit is exempt from Do Not Sell My Personal Information requests. Thank you Rich if you need 15 rounds to put down the assailant youre in trouble already, I have not near the experience of some of the veterans in the service. Model. So its all about what fits they individual and what they are comfortable and accurate with. Never had a jam up firing many different kinds of ammo. Even later to the conversation but figured Id throw my ring in the hate. In stark contrast, the vast majority of incidents involving .40 S&W and .45 ACP resulted in gunshot victims being DRT; they dropped and expired right where they were initially shot, even with imperfect shot placement. Tissue disruption caused by a handgun bullet is limited to two mechanisms: There are two places that we know will incapacitate a man every time they are hit: the brain and the upper spinal column. My opinion, for whatever its worth, is that were all overthinking this. Im sorry but a 225 grain bullet going 850 1200+ fps vs a 127 grain bullet going 975 1150 fps is going to be more effective and deadly. Im sure many hunters can attest to the expansion of rifle bullets recovered from their game. Everywhere else, you have only a chance of incapacitating your target. But its easy tell which one of you are the idiots, and those of us that actually know are trying to skate uphill teaching those that dont. I have used the 1911 govt. I do believe that whether its a 9 mm or 45 caliber youve got to be accurate with the placement of that round otherwise youre just wasting shots. A 4 inch Redhawk 45 colt loaded with 24 grains of H100 under a 335 grain Cast performance sledgehammer should be good against the largest carnivore Todd. Shot placement?! Wound-cavity analysis tells a similar story concerning the .380 ACP, with individuals shot by the round able to function seconds to minutes after being shot. Grinder: I realize this reply is way late in being posted, but I couldnt let that pass. A pilot was shot and killed by a .45acp in WWII. THE FOWDYFIVE IS THE LORDS CALIBER!!! CAN I GET AN AMEN?!? (that was actually a thing btw, Im not Ive carried about every size round in my 71+ years of which 36 was an LEO. In reaching this conclusion, the FBI appeared to give too little weight to the tissue-crushing ability of the larger projectiles (.40 S& W; .45 Auto). As a medical provider who fractured his back, making a house call in Alaska-dealing with chronic pain issues-I have talk to our local Police Captain. Any gun between 9 mil and .45 caliber is fine if you can conceal it, and employ it quickly and with reasonable accuracy. In those 53 years, weve built a reputation as one of Texass most trusted firearms dealers, and we did it in a state where sellers of used guns are almost as common as oil wells and prime rib. Obama wants us dead. Since the mid-2000s, gunmakers catering to consumers who increasingly buy weapons for self-defense have produced fewer of the small-caliber handguns like the .25 or .32, and more of those 9mm and larger. Which is better? And while you might think that lethality by caliber is the main factor you should be looking for, the simple fact is that while a 22 rimfire is deadly, it is far from the best round for incapacitating an assailant in the here and now. Ive never liked Glock its sure a well made gun but definitely NOT the best gun Ive shot. I think it is more the exception than the rule. We had a good chuckle out of that one. I am sorry for your incounter. We all, sitting safe and pretty, can discuss this and that but we are NOT in their shoes. In a military that accepts all genders and has lowered its physical fitness standards, Its not surprising that the 9mm was selected. However, others say that the lowly .22 LR has the best stopping power, since it stays in the targets body and bounces around, shredding arteries and punching holes in internal organs. 0.22" Lead air gun pellet at 600 ft/s will penetrate 4' plate glass. Also the .45 will ring your ears like hell and most self defense scenarios are you are not wearing ear protection. I carried an issue 45. spot on ! I spent FAR more money letting her out every pistol they had for rent than I did purchasing her final choice. That meant that the tip didnt just bore straight through him, but rather that the whole length of the projectile rotated over and over through Scalises body, ripping a wider hole and distributing a bigger shock wave throughout his bones and tissue. 2.1 and 2.5 million defensive gun uses annually, Law Enforcement Assistance Administration, Arming Yourself: A Woman's Guide to Self Defense and Concealed Carry (CCW), Protecting Your Family: A Parent's Guide to Self Defense and Concealed Carry (CCW), Arming the Elderly: A Self-Defense Guide for Senior Citizens, Holsters for Self Defense: A Guide to Carrying Concealed, Arming Toddlers and The "Kinder-Guardians" Program: A Shamefully Bad Idea, Self Defense for LGBT: Self-Protection and Concealed Carry (CCW) for the LGBT Community, Arming the Disabled: A Self-Defense and Concealed Carry Guide for People With Disabilities. Yes, yeas I have. Out charges the male mental with a screw driver in his hand. Leave it to a bunch of idiot Marines to bring a pistol to a rifle fight. Circulatory collapse results from massive bleeding caused by bullet wounds primarily to the heart, other major organs or major blood vessels of the torso. This was not a good CC carry for me so I stoped carring for a while. Rounds were literally ranked on the basis of temporary cavity volume, with penetration and permanent cavity ignored.